This story aired in the 11/10/26 episode of Crosscurrents
For Bay Area therapist and climbing coach Jay Louie, healing can happen far beyond the walls of a therapist’s office. Through rock climbing, Jay invites participants to slow down, tune into their bodies and emotions, and discover a different route toward joy, connection and healing.
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Story Transcript:
REPORTER: To fully understand how therapist Jay Louie works, you have to trust them to guide you safely with their voice and the confidence to belay you up the rock wall. So close your eyes.
Feel the weight of your body pulling toward the ground. Place your hands on your hips and feel the harness snug around you. Jay is there with the rope, ready to steady you and guide you as you begin to climb.
JAY: Imagine your feet grounding into the soil. You're gonna feel that it's a little uneven. There's a little grittiness, which is a pleasant sort of grittiness. You're gonna wiggle your toes, and you realize, wow, your body is sensitive. You observe the ridges, you observe the shadows, and the light spots on the rock, identifying potential places you can put your hands and feet. I imagine that there is a rhythm, like a musical rhythm, and every time I place my hand or a foot somewhere, I have a dunt, like a dunt beat. So the way it goes is, like – dunt, dunt, dunt, dunt, dunt, dunt, dunt. Rest. Dunt, dunt, dunt, dun-dun, dunt, dunt, dunt. Rest. And then dunt, dun-dun, dunt, dunt, dunt. And that's how I record it in my brain and as I make that dunt sound, I tense a part of my body that corresponds to the movement. And then I repeat that rhythm in my brain for a few times. And so when I am climbing, I have a musical tune that I play to and repeat to help me get going and stay focused.
JAY: I'm Jay. I use they/them pronouns. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and my training was in expressive art therapy. I have long black hair, and I have red streaks in my hair, and that streak changes color depending on my mood, like a newt or chameleon. And I have tattoos, so there's, like, two red lines on my bicep, symmetrical, that represent the lines in the rock.
REPORTER: Jay grew up in Hong Kong. They remember family life being pretty patriarchal - there was a fixed mold for who you were supposed to be.
JAY: 'cause in Chinese culture there's something called, you know, “teng waa.” You really like to listen to your elders, you really listen to your husband.
REPORTER: For Jay, muscles, dark skin, and even certain ways of moving were frowned upon.
JAY: And you can't be strong, because strong is undesirable by the heteronormative patriarchy. I had internalized that in order to be loved, I had to appeal to not only cisgender female norms, but also I had to have the patriarchy approve of me in order to get jobs, to have relationships.
REPORTER: They moved to the Bay Area about ten years ago to train as a psychotherapist. It was there that they discovered climbing, and found themselves getting stronger and stronger.
JAY: I've been able to break through those stereotypes of myself and that template of needing to live like that and to build confidence.
REPORTER: Beyond physical strength, Jay found that climbing was deeply therapeutic – something they had never experienced before.
JAY: What I love also very much is climbing offwidth, which are those big cracks, and offwidth involves using your entire body to contact the wall. And that, I think, has been remarkable medicine for me because it really brings my entire body into focus.
And you generally have to squeeze your body in there and push out. And I think that has allowed me to feel a sense of expansion, like my body expanding and getting bigger and then I lose my mind, in the sense I don't have thoughts.
REPORTER: Jay realized this could be powerful in therapy, especially for people who get stuck in overthinking or have ADHD.
JAY: Why aren't we moving and doing therapy? Why aren't we involving therapy, which is an intervention, like, fully with our bodies? It does not make any sense to me to just sit and talk forever.
REPORTER: So today, Jay is meeting up with a former talk therapy client to introduce them to climbing for the first time. We’ll call them the Climber to protect their privacy. Just a quick note: Jay keeps their sessions private and confidential but the climber agreed to let us record them today.
We’re standing in front of an ancient, lichen-covered rock, surrounded by oak trees, with the Bay stretching out in the distance.
REPORTER: Before their session today, Jay spoke with the Climber to understand how they’re doing and what they want to work on.
JAY: To reflect what you've shared with me last time, you did say you were excited to try climbing because it helps you confront your fear of mortality and challenge yourself to receive or experience being supported emotionally and physically, right?
CLIMBER: Thank you for all that that you prepared and shared. That feels aligned, and I can tell that you were listening actively, so that feels really good to have those reflections.
JAY: I think one of the goals would be for you to touch the rock and enjoy it, or just feel a connection to it or build a relationship with it, and just the act of going on the rock is enough….
REPORTER: Then as they climb, Jay coaches them and checks in on how they're feeling. After each climb, they talk about what came up, much like in talk therapy. Except the body and its movement comes first.
CLIMBER: Touched it.
JAY: You touched it already?
CLIMBER: Hmm, cool to be up so high.
REPORTER: The climber reaches the top of the rock, suspended in their harness against the rock face. Then, they let go, and Jay lowers them back down on the rope.
CLIMBER: That's okay. I did it.
JAY: You did it, yes. How are you feeling?
CLIMBER: I didn't know that I'd be climbing up shirtless, and that feels cool, especially since the last time we were really, like interacting, I was in the process of getting top surgery and that whole thing, so that feels really cool.
REPORTER: Jay has been taking this approach since 2021, when not many therapists were using climbing this way. Even now, their approach is still gaining attention, in part because of stereotypes around climbing. Jay says the sport’s culture can be overly exclusive.
JAY: There is a certain thread where it's like, "You're conquering the mountain," or "I'm so tough," you know? Like, it's a very individual way of looking at climbing, and it's also very competitive.
REPORTER: Jay wants climbing to feel more inclusive and collaborative, and to bring its benefits to communities they’re a part of: queer and trans people, immigrants, and people of color.
In the process, Jay is also rethinking the traditional healer-and-patient dynamic. They work outside the four walls of the therapy room. And they’ve noticed that for their clients – this approach allows for pleasure alongside the pains of the healing process.
JAY: I also think that there is something to be moving in space with people. In trauma, there's a loss of trust, right? In yourself, in others, in systems, in the environment. And so part of healing from trauma is rebuilding that trust and what better way to do that than involving your entire body and having a very physical experience of needing to trust yourself moving, trusting yourself to make the right decisions, to assess the risks.
And also the way that climbing and the fears can show up can really bring up a lot of material for the person to work with. Like, you can't hide from that kind of fear. And so it brings up those, like, thought cycles and, like, you know, nervous system reactions without needing to actually talk about trauma.
REPORTER: It’s somatic healing – especially when some things are hard to put into words. Sometimes, healing can happen in the body first, before we’re able to make sense of it in the mind.
REPORTER: During their final session, the sun is out, and the climber arrives shirtless. Same rock, a new climb. They seem radiant, ready to take it on.
Jay starts the session by asking the climber what specific challenge they’d like to address today.
CLIMBER: I have a lot of fear about, like, allowing myself to, to dream. I do feel like a blockage to even allow myself to, to dream to receive joy and good things in my life.
REPORTER: So Jay sets a goal for their session: to experience joy.
JAY: Great. So we're gonna test this first 'cause I want you to feel the sensation of being held. Okay?
REPORTER: After their first successful climb, Jay shows them another route on the back of the rock, where two flat slabs meet to form a cave. It doesn’t look like there is anything to grab onto.
Climber: What? I'm climbing this?
JAY: Yeah.
CLIMBER: Not that?
JAY: No. You're gonna dream. You're gonna dream it. Yep. Imagine it.
CLIMBER: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm, mm, mm. Okay. Let's do this.
REPORTER: The climber steps onto the rock. It slopes steeply beneath them, and their body leans with its angle.
JAY: Match your hands as you go along. Shuffle the hands, and then guide your feet towards the left…
REPORTER: And then suddenly.
The climber slips.
JAY: Nice fall. Nice surrender.
REPORTER: But the harness and rope catch them, leaving them suspended in the air.
JAY: Are you okay? What’s coming up for you?
CLIMBER: Just, just, that it felt so close, and I also was so scared.
I also felt like I didn't have, like, a strategy. I didn't actually have a plan…
REPORTER: The climber rests in their harness, perched against the rock like a bird. Jay tells them they’re brave. And it’s safe to push through the uncertainty. After a moment, the climb continues.
JAY: You imagine that you are walking very slowly, like you are pouring sand in and out of your shoes…
REPORTER: The climber slowly works their way up, pushing against the rock with both legs.
JAY: Nice. Wow. That was very, very good.
REPORTER: They make that leap of faith. Jay catches them when they come down.
CLIMBER: Oh Jesus.
REPORTER: Are you okay?
CLIMBER: Yeah Jay broke my fall.
JAY: That’s what I’m here for.
CLIMBER: My swing. What a ride.
JAY: You have so many calculations happening, and when you did it, it was perfect.
REPORTER: Did you cry up there?
CLIMBER: Oh, I sure did. I sure did.
I guess I'm free then. Metaphorically and physically.
REPORTER: They walk into the shade and lean against the rocks as Jay begins the reflection.
CLIMBER: I really feel like I faced a fear today.
JAY: Tell me about it.
CLIMBER: There's a lot of releasing perfectionism up there. There's this idea in my head that there's, like, one try to go up without losing balance, without losing my grip, and it's just so freaking metaphorical to my life. And this, like, growing up not being able to mess up or fail or make a mistake.
JAY: The second climb that you did, you, yeah, you just let go.And then I think when you let go, you realized, oh, like, this is what quote unquote failing is like, or quote unquote falling is like, and it's actually a restful place where I can feel the rock on my back, and I get the sun, I get the rock, I get to rest, I get support, I can recharge, and this spot is actually not as negative of a space. It's actually just a different space, and it is actually really rejuvenating.
CLIMBER: I can try to do something risky and still be caught, still be held, still feel proud of myself.
So it feels like, wow okay, can I do other things that are really high up and tall and feel bold? What would it feel like to just leap? And I need more of that in my life, and I'm doing it. I did it. I did that today.
