LEILA FADEL, BYLINE: Senator Bernie Sanders, an independent from Vermont, is out with a new book that calls for a political revolution. It's called "Fight Oligarchy."
BERNIE SANDERS: When I talk about a political revolution, it is, of course, politics, but it is beyond politics. It is bringing people together to develop a sense of community and to understand that Donald Trump's ideology is really not what a majority of the American people want.
FADEL: The book by the self-described democratic socialist argues that the two-party political system in the U.S. now answers to the uber-wealthy and has left millions of Americans struggling to afford basic needs. I started by asking him if he believes the United States is still a democracy.
SANDERS: I think it's a semi-democracy. You know, we're going to have an election, and some good people are going to win. There'll be some serious debate about the issue. But I think I speak for the vast majority of Americans when I say that we have a corrupt, deeply corrupt political system.
FADEL: Your criticism wasn't just for the Republican Party. You talked about the billionaire influence on the Democratic Party and how they contributed to the loss of what you called a winnable election for Vice President Kamala Harris. Can you say why you say that?
SANDERS: Look, we have more income and wealth and equality today than we've ever had in the history of this country. If you can believe it, 60% - 60% - of our people are living paycheck to paycheck. That is the theme of an election of a campaign that wins you an election. You stand up for the working class. You demand that the wealthy start paying their fair share of taxes. You demand that health care is a human right. But unfortunately, that's not the - what the billionaire class in the Democratic Party wants to hear, and I think those weren't the issues that the vice president was raising.
FADEL: This book is a pocket-size version of a tour called Fight Oligarchy that you went on in mostly Republican or a lot of Republican leaning districts. And it is a call to action. You call for political revolution. But what does that look like for Americans who are watching more and more violent ICE raids, these flurry of court decisions over what President Trump is doing or not doing, a government shutdown, a deadlock in Washington? That can feel very helpless for Americans who have no control over Washington and politicians here.
SANDERS: I think you hit the nail on the head. I think people are feeling helpless, deeply worried about the future and whether their kids will have an even lower standard of living than they do, and they want to know what we can do. And when I talk about the political revolution, it's - yes, it means, very importantly getting involved in the political process. But it's not just being involved in, quote-unquote, "political activities." We're seeing at the grassroots level, if not at Washington, at the grassroots level, a lot of union organizing. You can stand up and form a union. If you're worried about the quality of education that your kids are getting, get involved now. Work with the teachers. Improve education. We are a nation that, by and large, believes in democracy, believes in justice, understands that climate change is not a hoax but an existential threat to our world. So the message is break out of your comfort zone, do what you didn't do yesterday, and get involved in one way or another.
FADEL: Now, you're very critical of Donald Trump. He is very popular with a part of this country, and a lot of voters actually overlap on candidates like yourself, like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, like Zohran Mamdani, who's running for New York City mayor and has been really shunned by the political establishment of the Democratic Party. What is it that American voters find appealing about politicians like you and the others I mentioned, and a politician like Donald Trump?
SANDERS: Well, I think to give Trump his credit - look, I happen to think that Trump is mentally unstable, and I think he is a pathological liar and I think he is taking this country in a terrible, terrible direction. But I will give him credit, he's a good politician. He has a good sense of where the public is at. And what Trump has understood, where many establishment Democrats don't understand - the system is broken. Now, the solutions that he is providing, which is demagogic and is trying to divide us up as a people, these are horrible solutions. But he understands the system is broken. So I understand that Trump also understands, in a very different way, many establishment Democrats haven't made that point.
FADEL: We're in a situation where the two parties agree on nothing. The government is currently shut down. Paychecks are being missed, and this battle is around health care. I mean, that's - the Democrats have said this is about health care, so that premiums don't go up. But how can anything happen when the speaker of the House says, expect a long haul past Thanksgiving, blames the Democrats entirely for the shutdown for not voting for the continuing resolution and the Democrats are also dug in?
SANDERS: This is the way I look at it. You're right in saying that the shutdown that we're in right now has everything to do with what I see as the collapse of the American - a broken health care system, making it even worse. The unity that I am fighting for is the unity at the grassroots level. I don't care if you're a conservative, Republican, independent, progressive, socialist, whatever you may be - you can't afford a doubling or tripling of your health care costs. We create that movement. And you know what? President Trump, who is a very good politician, is going to wake up one morning and say to Mr. Thune and Mr. Johnson, hey, guys, we better deal with this stuff or we're going to lose the 2026 elections.
FADEL: So you think that's how this will end?
SANDERS: Yes.
FADEL: You're the longest-serving independent in Congress, and you have been focused on the working class and workers' rights for decades. Yet here we are in this affordability crisis, and you're out with this book, "Fight Oligarchy." If you could say why now and whether this will be any different than these efforts from before.
SANDERS: Well, let's be clear, these efforts have borne a lot of fruit. With a little bit of luck, we're going to see a very strong progressive being elected mayor in the largest city in the United States - hopefully. We are seeing great progressive candidates being elected to the House of Representatives, often women, often young people, often people of color. We're seeing a level of union activity that I have not seen in a long time. So I am not unconfident that at this moment, working people are going to come together and fight for an economy and a political system that reflects the needs of all of us and not just the people on top.
FADEL: That's Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. His new book is "Fight Oligarchy." Thank you so much for your time.
SANDERS: Thank you very much. Take care.
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